071 - Perception & Memory - the Mind/Body Link: A Look to Bergson, Jung, & Hegel

The duality of Mind and Body has been debated for millennia.  This has resulted in two polarized camps - Realists vs. Idealists.  Realists contend that there is a world existing out there whether we are here or not, whether we are observing it or not, whether we are thinking about it or not.  Idealists contend that ultimately only Mind exists, and the physical world around us is just an illusion, an unreal fantasy of the Mind.

But there is a third camp.  Many mistakenly classify Hegel as an Idealist,  However, he actually proposed a tripartite system with Mind and Nature coming together and evolving in one process of Becoming.  He referred to this as the historical advance of Spirit.  

Interestingly, Bergson postulated a way that Mind and Body are linked through perception and memory.  As did Jung, with his collective unconscious.  This episode explores this topic in depth.    

Transcript

0:00

Hello. This is Gregory Nowak. This is the cunning of Geist episode 71. Welcome back. The purpose of this podcast is to explore philosophy psychology and current science with an emphasis on the great 19th century philosopher. George Wilhem Friedrich Hagle. I central theme of the 70 episodes we've done so far is that we have a mind and that this mind is fundamental to the universe. And that mind is not just an epiphenomenon of matter. That mind co-exists. As one unity with matter that mind and nature are bound together in one process of evolution. In this episode, I'm going to explore a theory expanded by philosopher, Henri Bergson that shows just how mind and matter are linked. For a very long time. There've been two opposing camps here regarding mind and matter one camp, which is often called the realist camp, believes that the material world exists independently of whatever we think or perceive. And that our mind, our thoughts, our perceptions are just an outgrowth of the random movement of L elementary particles. Then you have the other camp. The idealist can't believe that mind is all there is. And that the material world is just an imagination of that mind. and extending this belief further. Some idealist, philosophies, religions, and belief systems contend that the material world is all just an illusion. That mind is all there is. Many mistakenly put Hagle in this camp, and this is an error and I w w we'll be addressing the shortly. On the one hand. We don't know, we have a body without our minds. And on the other hand, there is no hard evidence that a mind can exist apart from the body. And in fact, damage to the brain can lead to damage to our thinking capabilities. So, which is correct. Or is there a third alternative viewpoint? That both are just one half of the whole story. Two sides of one coin, two ends of one stick. And as I said, this has been going on for a long time for thousands of years, that debate on whether matter or mind is, is the real deal. Now in this episode, I'm going to present the premise that. The split between idealism and materialism is a false dichotomy. I intend to show that there's a third way to look at this. And I believe this is actually what Hagle taught then minded matter are joined in one entity, which we call spirit. And that both existed in historical process of becoming. I will also be relying heavily in this episode of the philosophy of French philosopher, Henri Bergson. As I mentioned at the beginning, he was one of the most respected philosophers of the late 19th, early 20th century. And also be calling on psychologist, Carl Young. Concept of the collective unconscious, which we've discussed here often. And of course we'll get into some Hagle as well. To address this issue. I'm going to be focusing specifically on perception and memory. I believe this is where mind and matter are actually joined. Essentially it boils down to this. I see memory as representing the mind as an aspect of the mind. And perception representing the body as an aspect of the body. And it is here through the joining of memory and perception that mind and body are joined. Because perception what the body perceives involves memory, which is in the mind. Now explain how all this works in a minute. But let me say right off that in trying to locate memory and neurons in the brain and parts of the brain or process of neurons. To show how the mind is it an epiphenomenon of matter? I believe that's a feudal exercise. It because it takes us, it's starting premise that materiality is the basis of everything. And then it tries to fit everything into that materialistic worldview. I believe we need to begin with what is we perceive things and we understand what we perceive through mind and memory. That is the correct starting point in my view. Now. The perception and memory is a flowing process of absorbing new perceptions and incorporating them. Into memory. Perceptions are current. They're always in the present. They are a reality, But it is a moving process. Current perceptions are continuously put into memory and these memories can and do shape how we perceive things back in the present. So the pants, so to speak is the lens through which we view the present. So let's get into some details. First perception. I want to make the point. That perception is more than just a physical process. Seeing a color is more than just having light beams hit the retina, hearing a sound involves more than just sound waves from an external object, hitting your eardrum. The pain you feel in the finger when you touch a hot stove is more than just. The heat transferring from the stove to, to your skin on the finger. All perception, all sensory input, involved, quality of some kind and quality is the word that's used to describe these mental. Impressions such as the color red, such as the sign of a car horn or the pain in your tooth or the taste of food and so forth. And in fact, one of our favorite philosophers here, the cutting of guys to American pragmatist, Charles Pierce was the first person to actually coin this phrase. Uh, the body records, physical sensations in a physical manner, but then. It does another step. It turns it into a real perception, quality by the mind. Quality, uh, can be taken. In fact, it's evidence that we humans are more than just lumbering robots as Richard Dawkins refers to us. That is because a fundamental leap must be made from physical interactions, such as light and sound waves and receiving mechanisms to quality it. Quality are at a different order. Quality our, how we humans actually experience things. Quality is reality. Someone once said perception is reality. Yeah. Quality is reality. The physics involved in producing the interaction stopped short of the subjective experience. Now there. Several interesting thought experiments about this One is the notion of a philosophical zombie or PS zombie for short. This was popularized by contemporary Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. David Chalmers. Uh, philosophical zombie is just like a regular person, except that they do not experience any quality or. Some say it was possible to construct a zombie like robot that would be indistinguishable from a human. It would look like a human walk, like a human and talk like a human, however, the PS. Ambi would not actually experience quality as we do. Now we may be coming closer to producing the talking portion of the piece. MB with artificial intelligence. The argument though, is that. If we humans experience quality and the P zombie would not. That that supports that something is going on rather than just the physical interactions. Now a P zombie is theoretically possible. And is the fact that it's possible is argues that there is much more going on in, uh, in. Live human being than a zombie. And what is it? It's something we call life and mind and conscious experience, not just physical interactions. One may say, how do we know that the peace army does not experience quality because it cannot be programmed. Into the PS zombie. We don't even understand ourselves what quality is mechanically or how w how or why we experience it ourselves. In fact, our understanding of quality is so limited. There is no way to know that what I call the color green is the same quality for me is what you call the colored color green. We may both agree that something is green when we see it. But there's no way of proving scientifically through mechanical means that we are experiencing the same thing. When we see green. We just don't know how this process works mechanically. And that is because it is not just a mechanical process. That's quality are fundamentally deep and wholly subjective. Of course, we do trust that when I point to something green that I'm seeing the same thing you are. But then my friends is a leap of faith. It is a warranted belief, but it is still a leap. It's not something that science has proven or even even understands. From a physical standpoint. It's important to recognize that quality exists in the real actual world. They are part of the universe. They're not separate from the world. It is one world. Us included in, and also our quality. This includes all our tastes smells, sounds our emotions, our thoughts. So this means that the separation of mind and body is a scheme that is not of the real world. Separating us observers from the world that will be observed as a categorical error. We've discussed the left brain, right. Brain dichotomy here often. The left brain being more common understanding either or thinking, separating things into their component parts. And the right brain is more holistic. It puts itself in the picture, so to speak and it's not analyzing from afar. The left brain produces the map. Whereas the right brain is the view from the ground. And for more on this right brain left brain dichotomy. Please see episode. 10. The left brain sees distinct units. It does not appreciate the quality usually involve a continuous scale of perceptions. There are many shades of greenish. You can select one shade and put it on a color swatch. The left brain sees the shade of green and is looking at while the right brain will see the swats as well. But it'll also understand the flow of the color shades, which your seamlessly joined. Moreover one stays with only left brain thinking absurdities arise. It does not give a complete picture at all of what's going on. In fact, gives a false picture. For example, when we divide matter into smaller and smaller bits. Or time into smaller and smaller bits, the properties. Of the bits do not belong to the thing as a whole. Xeno showed the absurdity of applying this way of thinking to. The real world regarding time. For example, according to Xeno, Xeno paradox, I can never walk over and touch the wall in front of me because I would first have to walk half the distance and then I would have to walk half the distance again and so forth. And in front of them, I'll never reach the wall. Xeno showed through his paradox is the, the absurdity of, of these applications. Perception is undivided. It is always big picture. Even when there is focus. It is always the gestalt subjective impression. There is of course, a focus of intention, but always a background as well. To focus means to have a background. When we look at a book on a table, the table does not disappear. This is true with all sensations. I'm walking down the street with a friend. I'm focusing on the friend, but the sidewalk, traffic, et cetera, do not disappear. They just moved to the background. I listened to the voice, but the sound of cars of others talking, I filter out, they do not disappear again. They're just put in the background. This is how life is. The whole picture is what the right brain sees. It's its way of looking at things. Hagle it to terms with that Vernon. there, they didn't have right brain left brain analysis and Hegel's day, but he had two words. Good words. German words, Vernon. Um, meaning the holistic way of reasoning and Uh, meaning the, the, uh, breaking things down into either or situations. Common thinking. Now of course we need our left brain for detached analysis. This detached left brain analysis takes the observer, the participant out of the picture. It measures things and forms, abstract notions of things. But the key is to recognize that the whole mind body separation is a left brain enterprise. When in fact they are not separated in reality. And this is what we experienced in life. Is as a non-separation. Now, how does memory fit into this? Let's get into it. Well, it turns out the memory plays a key role in perception itself. For us to have her perception exists in time and use this for a moment is real for a moment or two. Now the left brain breaks time down at the infant testimony, smaller units. And the present moment is destroyed. Science creates a four dimensional space time geometric model. And the geometry, the point is foundational. It has no dimension itself. It can be extended into a line. But the point itself has no dimension. This is how science views the present moment, just to point. In four dimensional space time. But this is not how we experience the present moment. And in actuality. Berkson here makes an interesting point. Any present moment. We bring some memory from the past to anchor it. He speaks to this as, as duration. That the present moment of becoming as a certain duration to it. It's not a point. And in that moment, in that duration, some part of the past through memory is joined to the present moment. We walk into a room and look around for a mom. We did not forget when we walk in that we had walked into her room or that we have a body or who we are. This all comes into the present moment as background. If there are no memory, then in each moment we would be completely lost. It would be like being born. Uh, again and again, w. With a blank slate. Forever, but this is not what goes on. This is not the way it is. We have a certain background, a certain memory. That we bring to each moment. And of course memory is critical to thinking. When we're thinking when we're lost in thought we did not forget who we are. We just put our notion of ourselves in the unconscious backward for a moment. Same as when we speak, we did not forget. There's a speaker speaking who was us. The mind body problem is only a problem with the left brain thinking separate the two artificially. And what is interesting here is that the present moment can not be separated out from the past. There was a flow. The flow of becoming is like what we discussed on colors. And here's where it can easily be seen that the body and mind exist in one, in the duration of the moment. Because in that moment, both the mind. Through memory and the body through sensation exists as one, they come together and when the present bodily moment experiences, and now it's joined with memory. It is joint with mind is one experience. And memory in the mind is brought to the present. To create the current moment. in the body that will be experienced. And the physical present moment of the body becomes real through the memory mind we bring to it. The infinite the mind is brought to the finite to the body, so to speak. And then this moment of the body becomes a memory going back, becoming part of the mind. So the mind moves to the body and the body moves to the mind in one seamless duration. And there you have it. And the process of becoming continuous, always moving forward. Berkson claims that it is in memory where the mind can be found. When you saying is that memory, mind become joined with matter in the perception and that matter, the body become joined with mind. In the memory, it is one flowing process. As I've, as I've said, And there's no fundamental separation here. There's no separation in two different worlds of infinite and finite. They both interact. They both need each other. Hagle causes unity and becoming spirit. The infinite exists is only the self surpassing of the finite and the finite. It only exists when self surpassed by the infinite. And the science of logic, Hagle states quote. It is the very nature of the finite to transcend itself, to negate its. Negation and to become infinite. Thus, the infinite does not stand is something finished and completed above or superior to the finite as if the fine had had an during part. From or subordinate to the infinite and quote, Henkel is quite clear here. Find it today has no enduring beating. A part from infinity. Continuing on with the same passage from Haydel. Quote, it is not in the sub bleeding of fine attuned in general, that infinity in general comes to beat. The truth is rather that the finite is only this. Through its own nature to become itself. The infinite. The infinite is it's affirmative determination that, which it truly is in itself. And cool. So both the infinite mind and the finite matter exist as one. Now here's where freedom comes in a very important to Galean concept. Human beings also have a unique mental capability of conceptualizing and visualizing future alternatives. Of seeing new possibilities for improvement and growth. In other words, humans have the capacity can see of a future different than the past. Animals also perceive and have memory and can learn and change behaviors as a result of experience and memory. But this is instinctual to experience. Animals can be conditioned to change behavior. Humans also experienced this conditioning process. We have an added capability. We can conceptualize different forward-looking alternatives. We have the ability to choose the path we want to take to some degree. We have often referred to this a Galean term. True infinity. And this is what's going on here. True infinity is when you go beyond the finite given. So humans, if they choose, have this capacity to express and activate true infinity. The conscious moment brings the mind through a memory to the present bodily experience. And here we have freedom of choice. There's just not one flow from. Present to pass the past presents itself to us in the present moment, we can keep doing what we've done in the past, or use our imagination and conceptual powers to imagine a better way. There's a creative element. To the present moment. Should we choose to, tap into it? Our body in the present moment is where the rubber meets the road. So to speak it is where mind memory meets matter. And. It's a bladed into one through becoming. Without the recognition of the operation to mind here. Then what is not truly alive. One is not truly real. That is because in each moment we have choices in front of us. It's not just a matter of seeing and identifying what is around them or what is around us. It is a matter of assessing the current situation and setting goals. This involves conceptualizing different alternatives and outcomes. It involves seeing alternative futures, not just the present. It involves bringing memory to the present and imagining a better way. This is what animals cannot do. As I said, higher animals can use memory to adapt. To present conditions. But they cannot visualize and conceptualize different alternative outcomes to make purpose and plans to achieve these outcomes. Only humans have this capability. Hegel's infinite and find it. And that two separate spheres, as he says, they are one. And this is where our freedom lies. For more on the finite and true infinity, please go back and see episode 19. Now. This is why mine being an epiphenomenon of matter and matter. And epiphenomena mine are both false dichotomies. The infinite mind and the finite matter, both exist. And there's a process of becoming going on. A matter of the finite going beyond itself through the infinite to become truly existent, to become real. Looking at only mind. And separate from matter and vice versa ignores. This ablation through spirit. George Gurdjieff said that we are third force blinds. Speaking of humans, and most of the world is third force. Blind. Uh, that's why we separate things into the spirit. Into mind versus matter, we tend to be very left brain. It seems to be getting worse. Spirit is what links mind and matter. And it does this through perception and memory. Now a great symbol for the synergy is the ying yang symbol, which is enclosed in the circle. Sure. You're all familiar with it. Now the symbol is not two separate symbols standing apart from each other, looking at each other, they are bound together in one circle. Uh, difference in one identity. The yang symbol recognizes one, absolute the circle, but it also recognizes two aspects of this one reality. The eating caused this heaven and earth. It's also mind and matter. There's some interesting questions that arise here. One is regarding the pure materialistic taken the pure idealistic take. If you look at it from a purely materialistic standpoint, if there's only Manor who is there to observe it. And on the other end, the same thing with mine, if mine is nothing to observe, how does it know what it is? So the can not be just matter. We can not be just matter. Otherwise we would not exist because there would be no knowledge of existence. A computer. I can be programmed to appear to be sending in to can fool people, but it can not know that it exists. It can be programmed, as they said to say, I exist. But it can never have the quality experience of life in consciousness itself. And there can not be just mine. Pure mind long, cannot know anything without having something to know. Now you can say the mind can extend itself to have something to observe, but this extension that is treated as something different from the mind is not an, a part of the mind, but something the mind observes. And then there is the duality of observer and the observed. Now really interesting point here. According to handle mine doesn't fact extend itself, informing nature. This is what he explains it as encyclopedia. Finite nature is a negation of mind. And. But mine does not stand apart. Mine must enter into nature into the, into the finiteness of nature to negate the negation. And thus the historical process of becoming a spirits, historical advanced, and no itself is undertaken. This is why he goes philosophy is often viewed as idealistic because mind. Is logically prior to nature in a system, not a time sense, but in a foundational sense. No, however that the reverse can not be said for manner materialistic naturalists, believe the matter through blind, random chance can become an observer of itself, but how is pure matter ever going to be able to achieve. Uh, observation. Remember we are talking about pure matter here. It cannot logically make a magical leap to become an observer. Do you have experience in quality of. Uh, thing and I'm thinking thing, and I'm conscious thing, no matter how it is combined with other non-thinking things. I can not develop consciousness or thought. And best non-thinking particles can combine randomly. And even given the possibility of them becoming self replicating at best, they will be a P zombie with no quality. But I'm not even sure the matter could ever randomly develop the ability of self replication. So. The head Galean model in my mind is the correct one that tripartite system of mind. Nature and spirit. Now we've discussed Carl Young, you're often including his concept of a collective unconscious. We did a whole episode on him, episode 49, which by the way, is one of the most popular ones we've done in this entire series. it was done last year and it was entitled, conscious and unconscious mind, the shadow young and Hagle. And as we've discussed young, believe that we all inherit memories from the past. From before we were born. These collective memories are essentially unconscious to us, but they do appear in the form of symbols and archetypes that occasionally enter into our conscious mind. There are different from our instinctual drives. They are psychic, not physical. Now the question is if we inherit these collective memories, Where do they exist? Uh, some suggests that they're embedded in our DNA. There's in our epigenetic genes. Others in the RNA. And that's how it's inherited. And there is some evidence for this. However, this to me seems again, to be the case of taking the materialistic doctrine as your starting point and seeing how the collective memory fits into this through materialism. And you'll never claimed a memories or physically inherited. I did say that they were herring inherited, but not, not primarily physically. Memory is a living thing within each of us. It exists along with our bodies is one whole. And while our physical bodies are separate from each other, our minds through memory. Deep down or not. And this is Young's point. No, of course our own experiences, our own personal experiences will shift and memories that are flowed down into the collective unconscious. However, the collective memory does not exist in space somewhere. It's not detached from the physical world, like a ghost. The material and the immaterial nine demander infinity in the, in, in the finally come together as one whole, I believe. And as I said, this has manifested in life and in consciousness and in mind, Young's collective memory. The collective unconscious provides a key link to understanding spirit, the collective unconscious as one whole for all of humanity. Actually, if you go deep enough, it's one whole, for all living things. Uh, cone is often used to symbolize this at the top point. There's our ego consciousness, the personal consciousness of me, rather than you. One level down. There's our general consciousness, the consciousness of us together and in the world. One level down. The third level down is our personal unconscious. This is our personal memories that we carry with us. That being called up upon the times. And often come to our conscious mind seemingly out of nowhere. Our personal unconscious is also where we bury things. We do not want to consider. And understanding what was buried in our personal unconscious was the key discovery of Freud is what put him on the map. But for its student young when deeper. And this is was actually its fundamental break with Freud. He said there was a fourth level below the personal unconscious called the collective unconscious and is there for all of us and it's symbols do appear. For all of us the same from time to time. And below that there's an even deeper part that goes back perhaps to all living things. But it is there. And it's the underlying foundation of all there is. Now. It brings up a question. What was going on in the universe before humans came on the scene. Now, just to back up a little bit, I do assume that the big bang is a fact and the universe went through an incredible expansion close to 14 billion years ago. Although scientists now believes there was something there before the big bang, although they do not know what it was. And as we've discussed here, It may actually recycle itself from big bang to big bang, which is a theory proposed by physicist, Roger Penrose. And we covered this in detail in episode 61. And of course the cyclical universe is foundational to Hindu philosophy. And for most of the east is a mayor of fact, then that's opposed to our Western linear view. And even though things got started again in the big bang, it's a fact of life that. We developed here on earth, much later. And there was a long period of time when human beings were not unplanted earth. As a matter of fact, Are anatomically modern humans showing creative thought I've only been around for about 40,000 years or so. And we can all trace our, our DNA back to actually two individuals that live some 125,000 to 150,000 years ago. They weren't the only humans back then, but everyone alive today can trace their roots back to them. And it has been proven. Through DNA statistical analysis. So why do I bring this up? My contention is the bit before humans arrived in the scene, there was still an unconscious aspect of spirit that existed and existed in materiality, but it was there. And it was shared with materiality, I should say. It's been there from time and Memorial from big bang to big bang. This is called panpsychism when we discussed this. In general. Episode 12. So a part of spirit is always existed. It's always been becoming. And in fact, memory may have been operating in the establishment of the laws of nature. And we talked about this in detail in episode 40 and episode 61. So check that out for more information. So let me summarize. Through examining the work of Berkson and young and haggle. We've seen a clear link of mind and body through memory and perception. I did not believe memory is located somewhere in a physical brain is not just some neuron collection. And there's not on space and we're wholly detached from any physical body. Perception and memory are one unit progressing through time, just as body and mind are one unit progressing through time. This is the evolution of spirit. And we are part of the process for spirits to know its freedom and its essential being through us. That is why we are here. That's the purpose of our lives. Now, let me just say, I realize I've touched on several major topics in this episode, and I haven't been able to go into too much detail on any of them. And hopefully we'll be able to explore and examine a lot of these much later. But hopefully some of the key points to this episode, that perception and memory are the link of mind and body. I did cover sufficiently. And as I said, I hoped to cover all these things in more detail in the future. So that's a wrap for this episode. Thanks once again for listening. References for this episode will be supplied in the podcast, Facebook page at cutting of Geist in a few days. And please like, and follow that page because I post there frequently in between episodes and many. People do comment there as well. And we have some good discussions. You can also follow me on Twitter at cutting of Geist. And please share this episode on your social media platforms. If you think others, you know, may benefit from it and be sure to tell you like-minded friends about it as well. So, let me close by saying this is Gregory Nowak. This is the cunning of Geist. See you next time.